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Aristo C-16 Tips
Forward
The information presented below is substantially based on ONE PRE-PRODUCTION C-16 so that some of the things that I observed may be particular to this individual unit. The paint scheme on this unit differs from the "production" paint scheme that I saw at the 1999 Big Train Show at the Queen Mary.
Contents
- The C-16
- Performance and Overall Impressions
- Derailments
- Scale and Size
- Power Pickup
- Problems
- Coupler Issues
- Lowering the C-16
- DCC Installation in the C-16
- Smoke Unit Upgrade
- Headlight Upgrade
18 Jun 00
The C-16
The C-16 is a small steam loco commonly called a Consolidation type, or 2-8-0. The C-16 class itself was pretty much exclusively used on the D&RG in their early days, but the Consolidation type was used everywhere in great numbers through the last part of the 19th century. Even into the 20th Century, the Consolidation type continued to be built, but generally in larger configurations than the C-16. With some minor detail work, the Aristo C-16 could pass for a PRR Class H1 type, or a narrow gauge version of many other kinds of Consolidations that ran all over the country.
This model is a remake of the original Delton C-16. Aristo purchased the molds and the model, according to Aristo, should look very similar to the Delton product in most aspects, including most proportions. Aristo has entirely rebuilt the mechanism as the original Delton mechanism had a nasty reputation for poor performance and reliability. The major change is that the gearbox is now dicast metal and the first and fourth drivers are driven by gearing. The gearbox was also designed so that "daylight" still shows under the boiler forward of the firebox. Unfortunately, there wasn't room for adequate gearing so the engine body was raised by 1/4" to make room. This made the model deviate from the exact proportions of a real C-16. Finescalers are outraged by this change, but in this case the reality of product design outweighed finescale concerns. However, this "problem" can be fixed with a little bashing on the model, see Lowering the C-16 below.
Aristo paints and details the engines in various schemes, some as coal burners, some as wood burners. Details such as stacks, marker lights, pilots, compressors, air tanks, dynamos, headlights, domes and such will vary from model to model.
The ATSF model pictured is a wood burner which is
representative of a Baldwin or Grant catalog engine. It has a very
long pilot, a diamond stack to catch cinders, fluted domes, a
single stage air compressor, a kerosene headlight (therefore no
dynamo either) and no marker lights. This is a pre-production unit
and Aristo says that the paint scheme will be "fixed" on production
units although I don't see much wrong with it from a general point
of view. I have no photos of a very early ATSF 2-8-0 to check the
"accuracy" of the paint scheme. The scheme does not represent
engines that were painted 50 years later, but things could have
changed in half a century. The engine is numbered 18 on the engine
and tender body, but has a number of 268 on the smokebox door.
Most of the gold colored details including the pops, whistle, headlight bezel, domes caps, cylinder heads and such on the wood burner are turned brass parts. The handrails and piping are brass rod. The bell is painted dicast metal. The connecting rods are plastic.
The Denver and Rio Grand Western model
pictured here is a more modern coal burner that represents the real
C-16 type. The pilot is shorter, it has an electric headlight and a
dynamo, non-fluted domes and dual air compressors. Please note that
this is also a pre-production model. Further Mac McCalla has
already had at this one. Mac has lightly (by his usual standards)
weathered it and some of the details that were on the original
model have been moved, modified or changed out entirely.
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Performance and Overall Impressions
The ATSF Aristo C-16 that I evaluated runs very well and pulls strongly. It handled 12 heavy cars with metal wheels on a 1.6% grade. See my Tractive Effort Tests page for the details. This engine pulls the most cars for the least current of any engine that I have come across so far so it would be a good candidate for battery power. In testing on the indoor GIRR, Mountain Division, it would handle 8 cars with metal wheels on a 4.2% curving grade and 4 cars in a 5.2% 4' diameter spiral.
The center two drivers are blind (no flange). This not only aids in getting through tight curves, it is prototypical as the real C-16's had blind drivers. Unlike the Aristo Pacific and 0-4-0, the driver axles are not allowed to rock with respect to one another. This will tend to make the engine more sensitive to poorly leveled track, but it also allows the engine to slip gracefully when overloaded. The Aristo Pacific and 0-4-0 hop about and complain loudly when they start to slip.
There was some gear noise at first, but it quieted down considerably in only a few minutes of running and then continued at the "light whine" level. The engine runs smoothly at low speed, although it takes a little higher track voltage to start moving than a Bachmann Shay. This is not a fast engine, it more closely matches the speed of the Shay than any of the other Aristo engines. I was successful in double heading the C-16 and the Shay. At speeds up to about 15 smph (the fastest that a real Shay would go) it matches the speed of the Shay quite closely. At 18 volts, I estimate that the C-16 runs at about 30 smph, about the top speed of a real C-16.
After a week, I've had the opportunity to put some hours on the engine. I estimate that I've got about 20 hours on it so far, with about half of those under maximum load. Under extended running with all the cars it will pull on the grades of the outdoor GIRR (12 cars in that case) the gearbox got warm but the engine showed no signs of stress.
The engine is already fairly heavily weighted so that I imagine that there is not much room in the boiler for anything else. The tender is small too so fitting it with onboard batteries would be a challenge. However since the engine only draws a little over an amp with a maximum practical load, a small battery set may work.
The engine is equipped with a smoke unit, and in typical Aristo fashion, it smokes for quite a while, but not real strongly. There is a three position toggle switch on the backhead which allows the engine to run with the motor, lights and smoke, with just the lights and the motor or with lights only. There does not appear to be a way to turn the lights off although this may be a pre-production problem as the instructions indicate that the lights should go off. The engine is not equipped with a sound system but after market systems can easily be installed.
The headlight is bright and white and casts a good beam although it is not directional. There is also a light in the firebox, but it does not flicker. I do not know if the models with markers have illuminated markers.
I laid some 2' radius track and turnouts on the family room floor to see how it would do. The bottom line is that it did fine. Even though it has a longer wheelbase, it doesn't complain in a 2' turn like an LGB Mogul. The engine is smaller than a Bachmann Big Hauler, so anywhere a Big Hauler will go, the C-16 will go too.
When I took the C-16 to the indoor GIRR, Mountain Division, it ran fine too and fit everywhere that the Big Hauler did. However, a couple of times the lead truck on the tender derailed. I suspected a problem with the drawbar, see the Problems section below for details.
The drawbar design is different that other Aristo locos and I think that it is generally better. Unlike the design on the Aristo Pacific (which is a major pain in the backside to connect or disconnect) it is easy to get the engine and tender connected, and when the drawbar finally latches under the tender, there is a reassuring click. I have had no difficulty with the drawbar separating, even under very heavy loads.
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Derailments
I initially experienced no derailment problems on my outdoor track (which is not in the best condition courtesy of El Nino) although there was an easily correctable interference issue, see the Problems section below.
Later, when I was running with a heavy load on a little used section of track, I noticed a consistent derailment difficulty. As the engine exited a curve, it would consistently derail on a turnout. As turns out, the pony truck was derailing halfway through the curve and then kicking the engine off the track when the already derailed pony truck hit the turnout. I found that this section of track changed from a positive superelevation of about one bubble, to a negative superelevation of about a bubble, back to a positive superelevation of about a bubble, all within about one foot! This was too much for the engine to handle. When the track was set for a consistent superelevation, the engine had no more difficulties on this section.
However, running the other direction I began to have a problem on one spot that is under construction where the track is not adequately supported. Here, I found another systematic derailment difficulty. It is true that this is a pathological case, but this time I decided to see if I could make the engine more tolerant instead of fixing the track. I did find that a simple modification to the pony truck mount allowed the engine to pass this section without difficulty and without fixing the track (it'll get the track fixed later when I am finished with the roadbed in that stretch).
When the track changes in level abruptly, the engine body can tip and lift a pony truck wheel off the track. The pony truck can then move sideways and when it comes down, it can be off the track. The engine can actually run for quite a distance with the pony truck derailed without seeming to have a problem. I discovered by inspection that the vertical travel of the pony truck was limited by an interference between the truck pivot and the engine gearbox. This limits the ability of the pony truck to drop downward far enough to stay on badly leveled track.
I ground off
some plastic from the rear of the pony truck pivot where it was
binding against the gearbox. This binding was fairly severe as the
paint had been rubbed off the metal gearbox at that location. I
kept grinding and fitting until light started to show through the
plastic indicating that I had removed nearly all of the plastic
right at the top of the pivot. I also reinstalled the pivot without
tightening the mounting screw all the way down. Now the pony truck
has significantly more vertical play and moves
MUCH more freely AND the engine will run
by the especially bad track without the pony truck wheels lifting
at all and without derailing.
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Scale and Size
The C-16 is a fairly
small engine, built to 1/24 scale. 1/24 scale is not correct for
the 3' narrow gauge C-16 prototype (1/20.3 is the right scale) so
the engine will look a little small against other 1/20.3 scale
equipment. Sitting next to a 1/20.3 scale model of a 36 ton Shay,
the C-16 is visibly smaller. The 36 ton Shay is a small engine too,
in real life they would be about the same size.
Even sitting
next to a Bachmann Big Hauler the C-16 looks small. The boiler sits
much lower and the cab is lower too. The Ten Wheeler prototype was
not a large engine either, but it was intended for higher speeds
and had taller drivers. The C-16 was intended to haul freight at
low speed and had especially small drivers so that eight of them
could fit under the engine. However, compared to the Bachmann stock
car behind the C-16, the proportion is good.
I don't have a set of C-16 drawings so I couldn't check the engine for accuracy. If someone out there has access to some drawings, I'd like to get a copy so that I can measure the engine against them.
The wood burner C-16 with the diamond stack is 6-7/8" tall over the railheads, 4-1/2" wide over the cab roof and 25" long over the extended pilot to the rear of the tender deck. The worst outside overhang is at the rear corner of the cab roof at 2-7/8" from the track centerline on 2' radius track. The worst inside overhang is less than that of a typical boxcar. This is small enough so that it will probably fit on most layouts.
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Power Pickup
Power is picked up on all eight drivers and four tender wheels. On my unit, one of the drivers on the third axle didn't pick up power, but this is not really a big deal because the blind drivers don't sit on the track all the time anyway. The pony truck has metal wheels but does not pick up power. There is a small electrical connector between the engine and tender that gave me some minor grief, see Problems below.
The drivers have plastic centers with metal tires. Power is transferred from the tires to the axle by a metal clip. On my unit, this clip was not making electrical contact to the tire even though it visually appears to be in contact. Sometime, if I ever have to take the driver off, I'll fix it.
The tender wheels have metal tires on plastic centers. Power is picked up on four tender wheels with low drag replaceable carbon brushes.
The C-16 seems to tolerate moderately dirty track gracefully and the engine wheels do not seem to load up with crud as I have experienced with other Aristo steamers. The tender wheels do seem to get dirty faster than the engine wheels. Even with intermittent power pickup, the motor seems to be able to keep spinning so that it can coast over bad track such that the gear whine pitch changes some but the engine doesn't sputter or jerk like some other locos.
While playing with a digital sound system installed in the tender, I noticed that the tender wheel power pickups seem to have fairly high and unstable resistance ranging from 20 to 200+ ohms per wheel. The excessive resistance appears to be located at the interface between the wheel and the brush itself. The contact brush resistance itself varies a little, but is usually on the order of 2 ohms or so. Burnishing the blackening off of the backs of the wheels did improve the situation, but it was not a complete solution. The lowest resistance came down to the sub 10 ohm range, but the contact resistance would still go to several tens of ohms at times. These wheels are cast so that the backs are not completely smooth. This may be a contributor to the varying resistance.
[Top]
Problems
The power connector between the engine and tender is arranged to hang out the back of the engine. However, in backing moves, it tended to get dragged underneath the engine and hang up in turnouts. I rerouted the connector and wire through the drawbar slot and used a small cable tie to anchor it to the side of the drawbar and that problem went away.
The drawbar itself clips under the tender. Besides the fact that mine was broken out of the box (some Zap-CA fixed that in a hurry) the drawbar tends to lift the front of the tender off the track slightly. This didn't give me any derailment problems on the outdoor layout. However, indoors I got a couple of derailments of the leading tender truck so the drawbar was immediately suspect.
The drawbar seems to be 1/8" too high at the
tender connection and it is also 1/8" thick. The fix was obvious. I
broke the glue joint in the middle of the drawbar and reglued the
end of the drawbar under the piece attached to the engine with a
1/4" overlap. This both lowered the drawbar by 1/8"
AND pulled the tender closer to the engine by 1/4". In a
2' radius curve, the front corner of the tender deck just misses
the engine frame. With the modified drawbar, the tender truck
derailments ceased and I still had no problems with the drawbar
disconnecting by itself.
[Top]
Coupler Issues
As soon as I started to test the pulling power of the engine, I ran into a problem. The stock Delton type coupler is mounted too low to couple with the Kadee "G" Scale couplers that I use on the GIRR. Since the engine is eventually going to the GIRR, Mountain Division which uses LGB knuckles, I just hacked on a Kadee for testing.
I used a Kadee #831 by grinding out the Delton type pivot post and mounting the Kadee body with a Kadee screw to a hole that was already in the coupler mount. There are two bumps on the side of the #831 body that need to be ground off to allow the body to fit. Even so, the coupler is a little low. Grinding off some more of the coupler body would fix that. The coupler works OK mounted this way, but the coupler sticks out too far.
Cutting off some more of the coupler
mount allows an #831 body to be tucked back under the tender where
it belongs. I cut the side panels of the mount so that there was
only about 1/4" left and then filed the remaining mounting surface
flat.
The very end of
the coupler body must be ground down so that it will fit under the
axle when the truck springs are compressed.
An LGB
knuckle coupler will mount the same way in the same hole that the
tucked in Kadee uses. It also mounts a little low, but the LGB
knuckle is very tolerant to incorrect mounting height. The end of
the LGB knuckle also needs to be ground down to fit under the
axle.
The pilot has too much overhang to reasonably expect a coupler to work there. The long pilot version has a nonfunctional drawbar on the pilot.
[Top]
Lowering the C-16
David Fletcher provided a note on the LSOL and Aristo Bulletin boards with a description of how he lowered the C-16. It seemed the obvious way to do it and it turned out to be fairly easy. Virtually all of the modifications are done to the C-16 frame so it the conversion doesn't go well, another frame can be purchased and the engine returned to like new condition with one exception.
David's method is to hack at the frame such that the motor block recesses 1/4" higher into the frame. The mod does exactly what is necessary. The entire engine is lowered without significant impact on the air space between the frame and the boiler. There are some side effects, but they are minor.
This is the
C-16 before the modification. Note how high the pilot is above the
track and how the pony truck has to reach down to the track. The
centerline of the cylinder should line up with the axle, but is
instead 1/4" higher.
After the
modification, note that the pilot rides right down by the track,
the pony truck is nearly horizontal and the cylinder centerline
lines up with the axles. The motor block does invade slightly into
the air space between the frame and the boiler, but only by about
1/16". The equalizer bars at the ends of the springs are
disconnected from the frame, but this doesn't show much as they are
hidden behind the wheels anyway.
The C-16 motor
block is a metal cased piece. It needs to be removed to do the
work, but modification of the block is not required. The motor
block attaches to the loco with a 4 terminal connector. The two
center pins go to the motor, the outer pins to the power pickups.
The block halves are electrically connected to the power pickups so
there is an insulator between the case halves.
I checked mine and the motor and power pickup connections are isolated properly. However, there have been some reports that sometimes the motor is not isolated. I didn't tear into the block to look, but there might be cases of an unintended short between a motor terminal and a case half. If some future R/C or DCC installation is anticipated, this might be a good time to check it and fix it if there is a problem.
This
is the frame before any modifications. It has been stripped
completely down. To get to this point, the superstructure is
removed from the top, the motor block is pulled out of the bottom
and the cylinder assembly is disassembled and removed from around
the frame.
To strip the engine far enough to lower it, follow these steps. Your engine might be somewhat different as this unit is a pre-production model.
- Remove two screws on the sides of the firebox right below the cab. These screws will not be reused during reassembly.
- Remove the pony truck.
- Pry the pilot support rods from the smoke box and then pull them from the pilot.
- Remove the one large screw under the cylinder saddle and remove the pony truck spring.
- Remove the drawbar.
- Pull the smokebox away from the frame.
- Work the two clips out of the frame at the back of the engine to separate the superstructure from the frame.
- Pull the electrical plug on the top of the motor block.
- If your firebox light is glued to the frame, work it free and then stuff it back up behind the firebox door and leave it there. You might want to paint it caboose red first, it looks much better that way. Set the superstructure aside for awhile.
- Remove the screws that hold the drive rods to the second drivers.
- Remove the cylinder assembly by gently pulling it away from the frame and set all the various parts aside. You might want to look at it carefully first so that you will be able to get it back together later.
- Remove two screws between the 3rd and 4th drivers. You might have to loosen the screws that hold the 3rd drivers a few turns and pry the 3rd drivers away from the frame slightly so that the screw head will clear the driver.
- Pull the motor block out of the frame.
The modification involves cutting and grinding on the frame and a
couple of other pieces to allow the motor block to recess 1/4" more
deeply. The bottom of the block will end up flush with the bottom
of the frame.
Cut out the flat part of the frame under the boiler and grind it flush to the sidewalls. Then grind the forward part of the firebox 1/4" higher. Then grind each of the 8 axle slots 1/4" deeper. Keep grinding and fitting until the motor block fits easily and is completely flush with the bottom of the frame.
The springs are a bit of a problem when the equalization rods are ground to clear the raised motor block, they will be disconnected from the frame. The springs will then be attached only by the central support of each spring. Be careful not to break off the equalization rods. David commented that he cut the spring assemblies completely off and reattached them further outward so that they would clear the block. He also moved them 2 mm forward to more closely align them with the axle positions.
A new hole must be drilled for the motor block mounting screws between the 3rd and 4th drivers. Drill a new hole 1/4" above the old one.
This picture was taken before the frame was repainted to cover all the evidence of the grinding. The lower top surface of the motor block will need painting as well because it will stick up a little under the boiler.
The
center boiler saddle (the flat piece crosswise to the frame) also
supports the crosshead and valve gear. This photo shows how it goes
together before the modification. Since the motor block will
partially invade the space that this part takes, it needs some
relief ground in it to clear the raised motor block. Eventually it
fits back in right where it is now.
There are also two bosses that stick out from
under the cab. These will have to be ground off so that the
original screw hole is completely gone or the bosses will interfere
with the raised motor block. This is the one modification that is
not easily reversible. David commented that he remanufactured new
bosses that mount further rearwards, but I elected just to abandon
them. The clips at the back seemed to be secure enough to hold the
whole works together.
David noted a problem with the length of the piston rods. He had to trim his. Mine didn't interfere with the cylinder head so I left them alone. The crosshead will now move right up next to the cylinder, but it clears.
With the engine sitting lower, there might be a problem with the pilot. Mine hung just a little too low, the tip was exactly at the rail height and tended to catch on uncouplers and such. The pilot support rods can be used for what they were intended, to support the pilot. Raise the pilot by hand and observe how much of the rod sticks through the pilot. Then remove the rod and bend the bottom end backwards about 15 degrees for the length that stuck out when the pilot was at the right height. The bent ends will bind below the hole and you can then hook the top ends back into the smoke box to hold the pilot up.
The lowered engine frame also lowers the drawbar. Depending how yours sits now it might need some adjustment. In my case with the modified offset bar, I had to turn it over to raise the tender end of the bar to an appropriate height.
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DCC Installation in the C-16
I haven't installed DCC in the C-16 as it currently resides at the GIRR, Mountain Division which does not use DCC. However, Ross Webster has written a page for his web site which describes his installation.
DCC CONVERSION of ARISTOCRAFT C-16
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Smoke Unit Upgrade
The C-16 uses a standard Aristo type plug in smoke unit. The unit generates light smoke for quite a while, but often the density of the smoke is so light that at all but the highest speeds, it is not visible.
LGB or Seuthe elements work much better. If you can find a Seuthe unit, its the same thing, but probably cheaper. I choose an 18 volt unit as the C-16 runs the smoke unit directly from the track. At prototypical speeds, the smoke unit gets about 14 volts which is just right. The smoke unit generates very visible smoke but doesn't consume fluid at an inordinate rate. It also dissipates only about 1.5 watts which also seems about right for long life of the element, even running dry.
An
LGB or Seuthe smoke unit fits right into the wood burner's stack
with no modifications at all required to the loco. I do not know if
the production wood burner stack or the coal burner stack will be
so easy.
The stock smoke unit plugs
into the loco using a standard 3.5 mm miniature plug. All that is
necessary is to trim the wires of the smoke unit to about 2" and
solder them to the plug. The plug is then inserted into the loco
and the wires are allowed to coil around in the base of the stack.
These plugs are usually used for headphones and most will be set up
for stereo with three connections, tip, ring and sleeve (in
telco-speak). This one is a monaural version in that it does not
have a "ring." Either kind will work, but don't connect anything to
the "ring" contact.
[Top]
Headlight Upgrade
The C-16 comes with a standard track powered, nondirectional incandescent headlight. It is fairly bright the way it is, but I elected to install a white LED in place of the bulb. More information on bright white LEDs can be found on my White LED Tips page.
The photo on the left is the stock headlight. The one on the right is after the white LED installation. In the photo, the LED doesn't look that much brighter, but it does cast a much better beam. Its color is more suited to an electric light instead the of the oil light on this version of the model but I like the brightness.
The circuit diagram for the LED installation is very simple. A series resistor limits the current to the LED to about 15 mA. The extra diode is not really necessary but I put it in anyway. The LED is a diode itself so that it automatically provides directional lighting. However, I found little data on how well these LED's put up with reverse bias so I added the diode to prevent the LED from avalanching. I did test it without the diode and it appeared to work ok, no detectable current was drawn. When the motor is off, the LED will be absolutely dark when the track polarity is reversed. With the motor on, it LED will light dimly anyway. I assume that is because there is commutator noise that spikes the track voltage just a little positive, even going in reverse. If your LED lights brightly in reverse instead of forward, reverse the power wiring to the whole circuit.
The physical installation in the C-16 is very easy. The headlight housing can be removed with two screws. Mine had a little bit of glue in there as well, but the headlight came off with minimal force. The hole in the bottom of the housing is big enough so that the LED can fit back through it. The diode and resistor mount in series with the LED leads and support the LED. The whole works is held in place with a dab of hot glue. The leads on the LED have to be bent close to the housing to allow the LED to mount rearward enough so that it doesn't interfere with the headlight lens.
This page has been accessed times since 30 Oct 1999.
© 1998-2001 George Schreyer
Created 21 Aug 1998
Last Updated July 4, 2001
